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To ‘Vande Mataram’ or Not…. August 31, 2006

Posted by PagMax in National, Political.
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Some politicians have tough time separating religion from state.  Be it American Republican candidate for U.S. Senate who thinks appointing non-Christians is equivalent to ‘sin’ or be it Indian BJP leaders who wants to make singing Vandemataram mandatory in schools and parliament on the songs 100th anniversary on Sept 7th.

On the face of it, one might not find anything religious about Vande Mataram. So just to remind you, the only reason, in spite of being a revolutionary slogan during independence, Vande Mataram did not qualify as  national anthem, was because it literally translates as ‘I bow head in front of you, Mother’.  ‘Mother’ could be thought as Mother-India (not the movie!) but some believe it was actually meant to be Hindu Goddess. Indeed, she looks like one in this image which was posted on net as ‘Bharat Ma’. ! In any case, Islam allows that kind of respect only to Allah (May peace be upon Him) and secular India had to respect that choice. (Note that definition of secularism is quite different in India than what it is in America and LOT different than what it is in European countries like France).

Well surely every Muslim does not take Quran so seriously. I would not if I were a Muslim. Neither did A R Rahman, and surely not Mukhtar Abbas Nakvi, BJP Spokesperson, who is very vocal in supporting his Party’s stand.

But that’s not the point. Point is for good or bad, whether you agree or not, Vande Mataram is not our National Anthem and we have to live with it! Its really ironical that both National song and National Anthem of India have always been in controversy and more ironical is that most (or all) the reasons fueling the controversy were just dumb. Reason Vande Mataram is in controversy now is exactly the same it was 60 years back.Nothing has changed now. So why you just do not accept it and move on?  Singing a song is not going to solve our problems, would it? Unless, your problem was there has been no political-religious controversy  stalling the government for a while. Don’t we have a Nation to run? Oh right, I forget, these politicians don’t.

Yes, Vande Mataram is our ‘ National Song’ but still that does not warrant the idea of forcing everyone to sing it.   What’s next? Making it compulsory for everyone to play India’s national Game’ hockey on Dhyan Chands 103rd Birthday.

UPDATE (-sk-, 9/7/06): Check out: Vande Mataram contd.

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Comments»

1. -sk- - August 31, 2006

“Be it American Republican candidate for U.S. Senate who thinks appointing non-Christians is equivalent to ’sin’…”
Who are you talking about here?

“Note that definition of secularism is quite different in India than what it is in America and LOT different than what it is in European countries like France.”

And what, pray, is the definition of secularism in India?

“Well surely every Muslim does not take Quran so seriously.”
Hmmm. I think one can follow principles outlined in the Quran and still bow their head to “Mother-India”
or Nargis, as she’s popularly known.

” Point is for good or bad, whether you agree or not, Vande Mataram is not our National Anthem and we have to live with it!”

Great! I don’t mind.

“Don’t we have a Nation to run?”

No. The nation has proved itself worthy of taking care of itself. As I had mentioned in the Laloo article, India is prosperous inspite of its politicians.

” What’s next? Making it compulsory for everyone to play India’s national Game’ hockey on Dhyan Chands 103rd Birthday. ”
Good idea and while they’re at it, they could probably kick a few footballs too. Who knows? We may very well find the next Zidane in Jabalpur.

By the way, does the BJP want people to sing the original version of VM or Rahman’s “pop-patriotism” one? If it’s the latter, I’m all for it.

2. -sk- - August 31, 2006

A better idea would be to get everyone to sing a patriotic song like ‘Mere Desh ki Dharti’ or ‘Des Mere’ or even that Anu Malik song. IMO the Anu Malik indipop song (don’t remember the name – if someone could refresh my memory that would be great) should be made the national song. Beautiful lyrics set to a classy tune and sung by the great maestro himself. What could be a better combination? If there’s ever a vote for the national song of India, this one will surely get mine.

3. ramare - August 31, 2006

I Love you…OOOOO India…tujhe naa choooodengeee

4. tismarkhan - August 31, 2006

Abt the Senate candidate, I am taking abt Katherine Harris. I forgot the name when I was writing this and I was too lazy to search and include. I have the link anyways now.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/28/senate.harris.ap/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

Funny part is her opponent also turns out to be a dumb racist..here is the link to a video where he lost the election in a minute.
http://break.com/index/how_to_lose_an_election.html

Abt the comment on secularism, our definition accepts every religion’s faith in constitution. Like marriage laws are different for hindus and Muslim..or a sardar need not wear a helmet even if required by the state..and many other things..
In west, no religion is accepted in constitution for what they call separation of church and state. As a matter of fact there is enough movement in USA to officially call ‘Christmas Season’ as ‘Holiday season’ and at some places you could get in trouble for saying ‘merry Christmas’ instead of ‘happy holidays’.

Its even worse(or better) in France, you cannot wear anything in public which displays ur religion. So skull cap, sardar’s turban and scarves are out..!! One mulsim woman was fired because she refused to take her scarf out and also to shake hands with her male-colleague, as it is prohibited in islam…

I hope this is enough to prove my point that secularism is viewed bit differently in India..!!

5. tismarkhan - August 31, 2006

Oh yes, and SK, u r right abt India is running inspite of its politicians and thats why I said..I forget these politicians dont have a nation to run. but people do..! so I hope they spare the people these nonsense and let them work!

Anu Malik sounds good but I would vote for himesh reshamiyyas ‘love u unconditionally’. When our constitution is written in English, may be national song can be part English as well..

6. Sujai Karampuri - September 3, 2006

I completely agree with you on this. Making such symbols mandatory is not going to work in a diverse country like India. Will we ask every temple-goer to recite the prescribed prayer to allow him into the temple? My country gives me freedom to choose- to celebrate an event or not, to recite a song or not, to attend an event or not. India Governments (BJP) cannot take away that right from any community.
More on this at:
http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/on-singing-vande-mataram.html
Sujai

7. sk - September 4, 2006

“Will we ask every temple-goer to recite the prescribed prayer to allow him into the temple? My country gives me freedom to choose- to celebrate an event or not, to recite a song or not, to attend an event or not. India Governments (BJP) cannot take away that right from any community.”

So, go into a temple and do what you want. Sing a song from kuch kuch hota hai. Or better still, go into a mosque and sing it. It’s a national song – live with it. This sort of stupidity is not going to get us anywhere. Even in the 21st century, we argue about all these small and useless issues. If you don’t like BJP’s policies, vote for the other so called “secular” party that’s achieved a lot in terms of ruining our country during the last 50 years. How does a party that panders to the likes of muslims become secular (nothing wrong with that, all I’m saying is, congress is just as communalist as BJP)? IMHO, the secular Congress died with Gandhi (and Nehru, who was a secular idiot).

8. tismarkhan - September 4, 2006

I was never a big fan of BJP. Mainly because of their association with RSS, Shiv Sena and ABVP and of course black day!.. I doubt if I would ever vote for BJP. But that hardly makes congress flawless. My guess is congress has more corrupt leaders than BJP…(poor Natwar Singh took the blow for all!)
So I might not even vote for Congress ever..
But then I also hate voting for small parties, as they dont do any good by themselves. All they do is extend or withdraw their support to form or tumble BJP or Congress led government.
Whom would I vote for..? Tossing a coin sounds good.

9. -sk- - September 5, 2006

Here’s my 2cents on this topic (in addition to the 98 cents’ worth that I’ve already posted):

1. Vandemataram is a song written in praise of the country. It’s a national song. It’s not something written in praise of a Hindu Goddess. So these people who’re opposing the motion to sing the song should either present proof that it is or f*ck off.

2. If BJP becomes communal by way of association with Shiv Sena, doesn’t that make Congress (which has links with Muslim parties) communal too? Or are the rules different in that case?

3. India needs good Muslim politicians who can lead their community to prosperity and progress, rather than these merceneries who simply exploit situations like this to garner votes.

4. A. R. Rahman’s Vandemataram had lyrics written by Mahboob, both Muslim. They apparently had no problem with the words.

4. Anu Malik has apparently changed his name to Aannu Mallik.

10. tismarkhan - September 5, 2006

>
> 1. Vandemataram is a song written in praise of the country. It’s a national song. It’s not something written in praise of a Hindu Goddess. So these people who’re opposing the motion to sing the song should either present proof that it is or f*ck off.
>
Indeed its not. As I said ‘some’ believe it is and that was partly because Bankim Da’s arguable fame of ‘super pro hindu and anti-muslim’. Of course, this depends on which history book you read. However, that was hardly the reason for opposing it back then and even now. The primary reason is as per Quaran no muslim can bow in front of anyone other than Allah. Not even mother nation. Again as I said, I would not take Quran so serioulsy, but if some one wants to I do not have a problem with it. I do not see what is so special about 100th anniversary of the national song, that every Indian must sing it. I am fine with national anthem being sung in schools and parliament on National holidays. We have list of ‘national items’, hockey, peacock, lotus…, what else is going to be mandatory and what occasions?
Why dont we just keep it to anthem as it has always been and move on…
>
>
> 2. If BJP becomes communal by way of association with Shiv Sena, doesn’t that make Congress (which has links with Muslim parties) communal too? Or are the rules different in that case?

Rules are certainly NOT different. Congress could certainly be deemed as communal but BJP was always a step ahead with loud and dumb remarks by them or their buddies. Congress is no better, they just pretend to be secular in the name of ‘Gandhi’. Indira and Rajiv got unfair advantage of their last name and so did sonia. Choosing between the two would be tough and I am not missing voting in India.
>
>
>
> 3. India needs good Muslim politicians who can lead their community to prosperity and progress, rather than these merceneries who simply exploit situations like this to garner votes.
>
I agree on that. Muslims politicians play minority card too often. I even disagree on forming a political party in the name of a religion. Be it hindu or muslim, that should not be allowed. We need to move towards more rigid version of secularism.
>
>
> 4. A. R. Rahman’s Vandemataram had lyrics written by Mahboob, both Muslim. They apparently had no problem with the words.
>
I made that point. I did not know about mahboob, but still the point was made that every muslim does not have problem with it. Question is if some do, should we respect it or ask them to f..off exemplifying A.R. Rahamn? My answer is thankfully we do not have to make that choice. A choice was made 60 years back. We just have to respect that choice and not force it on everyone.

I, Hindu, decline to sing that song when some morons hungry for a religious support for their political aims want me to sing it. I will sing on any other day, any other time. Not on 7th September. 100th Anniversary of the song does not mean a lot to me.
>
>
> 4. Anu Malik has apparently changed his name to Aannu Mallik.

and sunil shetty changed his name to suniel shetty.

11. -sk- - September 5, 2006

deleted this comment – didn’t make sense.

12. tismarkhan - September 5, 2006

Response to the deleted comment above :

who is talking about a change?? My entire post and argument is about NOT making a change and letting things be how they were..may be you should present this idea to BJP. After babri mazzid, they would be interested in rooting this out.
And what do you mean change this ‘TOO’? what else has been changed? One song was just selected over other one for national anthem, nothing has been changed and I would like to keep it that way.
Regarding the translation, I am pretty sure scholars who reviewed both the songs and their controversies around it made sure Jana Gana Mana does not have same issues for which Vande Mataram is not selected. It would be have been really dumb otherwise. And indeed, I do not see ‘bowing’ in translation of Jana Gana Mana.
‘Chanting ONLY your name’ might raise a flag but I am not sure which word is exactly translated as ‘ONLY’ in (Tava Subha Name Jage). And may be Quran does not have problem with chanting other names than Allah and seeking blessings (without bowing head!).
This page (http://travel.vsnl.com/toursindia/anthem.html) claims that this translation was rendered by Tagore himself and it does not have ‘ONLY’ in it. I do not make claim on accuracy of either of these two.
Nonetheless Jana Gana Mana was in a controversy and people tried to tamper with it and some also tried to replace it by VM. Unfortunately even those reasons were wrong as explained in the same wiki article and this page.

13. tismarkhan - September 5, 2006

“I think it’s a good idea to sing the song on the 100th anniversary (it’s our national song, for God’s sake)”

Sure it is. Play it everywhere.., I dont mind. I have problem with making it mandatory. I agree kids should be educated about our history and there are better ways of doing it rather than hitting a sensetive issue. To start with promoting historical movies and TV serials otehr than the crap what ekta kapoor makes.

Again, I agree that Vande Mataram should not have demoted because of religion. Choice of Islam should not have considered at all when making a decision on National Issue. Religion should not have been mixed with it.
But that happened long back and trying to undo it will not help.
Just like construction of Babri Mazzid on Ram Janam Bhoomu might have been wrong in the first place but trying to undo it after 500 years and destabalizing the entire nation is even dumber..I think.

14. sk - September 5, 2006

Either way, it’s a stupid issue – not something that so much time and money should be spent on. This issue should be put to vote in the parliament and decided. The Babri Masjid demolition was even worse. Godhra and what followed was the worst. Even in the 21st Century, our country is divided by religion and caste. If Bollywood is the only thing that binds people together, they should make Shahrukh the Prime Minister, Amitabh the President, Aanuu Mallik’s “I love India” the national anthem, and all those bhangra marriage songs, national songs. At least that way we’ll be representing our culture and nation correctly in the US. Bollywood = India and India = Bollywood. Oh and btw, I vote to make Mallika Sherawat the Minister for Information and Broadcasting.

15. sk - September 5, 2006

“1. Vandemataram is a song written in praise of the country. It’s a national song. It’s not something written in praise of a Hindu Goddess. So these people who’re opposing the motion to sing the song should either present proof that it is or f*ck off.”

I stand corrected by the Wikipedia article on Vande Mataram. There are a couple of lines that mention Durga.

16. tismarkhan - September 5, 2006

“If Bollywood is the only thing that binds people together, they should make Shahrukh the Prime Minister, Amitabh the President,”

We are not too far from this situation. Movie stars are always considered as safe bet in politics. NTR, Jay Lalitha, Rajkumar and our dear Govinda to name a few. They would not have made it otherwise..! But if that happens, lets make Amitabh prime minister rather than president. I will say it will work.

 “Aanuu Mallik’s “I love India” the national anthem, and all those bhangra marriage songs, national songs…”

After all I wont be that resistent to change on this one!!

“I stand corrected by the Wikipedia article on Vande Mataram. There are a couple of lines that mention Durga. ”

Actually abridged version of VM is free of any mention to Durga. Bankim da, true to his image does compare mother nation with durga, lakshmi, in the complete version but that version was no subject of our argument. So you were right even before. One cannot prove either ways that ‘Ma’ in ‘Mataram’ is not the Country. But whatever that is, it was ‘anti-islam’!!

Not a flawless argument and thats why I think secularsim should be at times ‘ignore-all the-religion’ rather than ‘yield-to -every-religion’

Now for whatever reason they yielded to it back then, the best thing in this case is to leave it that way now..!!

Lets try to work on other things like population control (and thats why I hate RSS because they believe population crisis is a myth!)

17. sk - September 5, 2006

Oh, and KANK should be the “Official Movie of India”, since it so effectively and accurately depicts Indian culture.

18. Random Post (2), hot indian actresses, omkara, HP, etc. « … And on the fourth day - September 6, 2006

[…] 5) Have Indians run out of topics to blog about? Tismarkhan, Sujai and others are blogging about the recent decision to make it mandatory to sing the national song during its 100th anniversary (since repealed). My take on the issue? Don’t waste youre time, fellas, there are lot more important things to blog about. […]

19. CK - September 6, 2006

What the hell is happening in this country? How can one tell that it is against my conscience to say ‘I love my mother’. Today these people are denying to accept ‘Vande Matram’.. Tomorrow they will deny to accept India as their country.. For them, next would be ‘Declare India a Islamic country’ as it is in Quran to accept only Islam and Islmic country…
These people celebrate when Pakistan wins from India.. Bukhari is an ISI agent.. Osama is their hero.. Killing is their religion..

They must say ‘Vande Matram’ or just should be eliminated. No one has the right to live if they can’t understand the meaning of mother and motherland… Even animals understand this…

How can God (their Allah) pitch in and say ‘don’t bow before your mother’… Stupid and Criminal attitude throughout their society..

No doubt…

They have to either clean their image by coming out with slogans ‘Vande Matram’ or else they have nearly declared what they have in their heart and mind..

20. CK - September 6, 2006

And who says.. singing doesn’t matter… A man is known by his words.. An organization is known by its vision.. A society is known by their slogans… ‘Vande Matram’ has lot to do with our emotions about the country…
If words are not important… Let us eliminate the word ‘Allah’ from Quran.. Let Muslims do this first and prove to us that words are not important…

And things can move ahead with peace…
It is these words that bind people together.. the very unacceptance to do this is an indication of their revolt towards peace of this country…

If someone says them to say ‘Vande Matram’.. They should have actually said – ‘Why say once, we will say 100 times’…

21. tismarkhan - September 6, 2006

I love it…I was really missing some comments from “extreme-fanatic-muslim hater-with-no-idea-what-he-is-talking-dolt”. CK just filled that void..
I do not think I have patience to counter your gay arguments but I will say this:
you are hilarious..!!!

22. planetsk - September 6, 2006

Folks, is there any huge difference between an “anthem” and a”song”?? And what are we figthing for..is it excessive patriotism or religion based lunaticism..

If I go through the comments on this topic..its ending no where..

Time to change the topic..btw, CK’s comments are more than hilarious..may be stupid..no offense please…

PS: India-a secular state with a Muslim President and a Sikh Prime Minister,movies ruled by “Khans”..land for “foreign” investments..and non-religious terrorists…

23. sk - September 6, 2006

Both are tainted. Apparently, one was sung in praise of a British monarch, while the other was a call for hindu nationalism.

“It is these words that bind people together..”
Apparently not.

“I do not think I have patience to counter your gay arguments but I will say this: ”

“Gay” arguments???? That’s an insult to gays… and to arguments. Bad, bad comment. No donuts for you!

“If I go through the comments on this topic..its ending no where..”
You can thank me for that. Since Mr. tismarkhan responds to every comment, I know I can write any crap (whether I mean it or not) and keep this comment section alive. 🙂

“Time to change the topic”

As Gandhi would have said, “Be the change that you wish to see in the topic – IOW, change the topic!”

“btw, CK’s comments are more than hilarious..may be stupid..no offense please…”

As Mr. tismarkhan would say, “first, talking abt funny language..I would prefer if the responses to comments are free of demeaning words like ‘stupid’. Even in the highly political debates I take part I hate when someone cannot respect opposing view points..and just start bashing others with all kind of language.”

24. tismarkhan - September 6, 2006

well well..

“Gay” arguments???? That’s an insult to gays… and to arguments. Bad, bad comment. No donuts for you!

I will be brutal and mean here. I am not bothered much about hurting gays. To me they are just messed up like CK’s arguments.
(I do not think I am popular enough to get hate mail for saying this, but I dont mind, if I do.)
Also, My new found hero Eric Cartman (from Comedy central’s south park) tells me that everything which you think is not cool is ‘Gay’!!
[Moderated]

“Mr. tismarkhan responds to every comment….”

Good idea and yes it would work bcos thats what happens when you run simulations whole day, and you just have to sit in front of the computer staring it when each one is running. I do this in between my simulations..!!

“As Mr. tismarkhan would say….I would prefer if the responses to comments are free of demeaning words like ‘stupid’”…

I tried my best not to call CK as gay [Moderated] fanatic dolt who has no idea what he is talking about..but he asked for it..it cud have been even worse…
at least I did not call him stupid..so I am still true to my earlier claim.!!!

“..Apparently, one was sung in praise of a British monarch, while the other was a call for hindu nationalism…”.

Thats gay too..ok not gay, I would rather have some donuts now!!
anyways, I tried to give a subtle hint in the post saying that controversy of jana gana mana is kind of dumb. I meant exactly this and in one of my comment I gave even links(including wiki) on why I think so (comment no. (12). )

JGM was sung first time in the event which was meant to felicitate king george. It had nothing to do with the king himself. Media reported it incorrectly but tagore himself clarified in his autobiography that ‘Bharat Bhagya Vidhata’ is God not King George. (However that could still offend atheists..they dont want to believe in God)

And VM, certainly was not used to call for a hindu nationalism. I dont know what Bankim Chatterjee had in mind but I am sure when our revolutionaries used it, it was only for independent India.
So I certainly disagree with calling any of them ‘Tainted’.

Vande Mataram..!

25. tismarkhan - September 6, 2006

“Folks, is there any huge difference between an “anthem” and a”song””??

I would like to say yes. Why? I do not know but it has always been like this. Anthem cannot be tampered with and has to be looked at with respect. So you cannot have A R Rahman remixing Jana Gana Mana.. [turns out that he can]

“…“foreign” investments..and non-religious terrorists…”
Thats rather a stretch on definition of secularism but I like it…

26. sk - September 6, 2006

“gay fanatic dolt”

That’s extremely derogatory.  Your views towards gays are similar to CK’s views towards Muslims. I don’t mind it as long as it’s done in jest.

27. sk - September 6, 2006

“I tried to give a subtle hint in the post saying that controversy of jana gana mana is kind of dumb. I meant exactly this and in one of my comment I gave even links(including wiki) on why I think so (comment no. (12). )”

That’s why I said, “apparently!”

“Anthem cannot be tampered with and has to be looked at with respect. So you cannot have A R Rahman remixing Jana Gana Mana..”

Check out this and this. By law, one has to respect the national anthem. It may not be so with the national song – at least, a lot of people don’t seem to care about it. My last comment on this topic!!

28. tismarkhan - September 6, 2006

I did take due note of ‘apparently’…and the explaination was given only for the argument.

Regarding ‘Gay’ comment. We are going way off topic now..but my comment was certainly in jest by all standards and was made only once. It was not elaborated as CK. You are free to moderate it anyways…hell I will

“Gay fanatic dolt”..I used all three words at three different places in the original comment. I just joined it together to summarize what I said. It was not meant to be taken as a whole and surely not as an insult to gays. (but I make no pretense of respecting that ‘choice’ either.)

I think I sign off too from this topic and write a new post sometime over the weekend

29. Islampusing - September 7, 2006

HI !

I believe that the issue is not Hindu v/s Muslims, rather Muslims perspective that the song “may” be treating some one more holy than the prophet. I believe that this it is up to the peple to think as a personal thing and not as a group. Also Fatwas are taken out only for those things that threaten the existance of the religion and this is not doing that. Arnt we Indians First. IF our muslim brothers want to bring in religion before the country then they should be ready to be treated in a similar way ! ! Allah has said that we have to be loyal to our land that feeed us first.

Why are we not creating Fatwas against terrorists ? They slay innocent people, fathers, mothers, bread earners.. They are the people who we should be targetting. I want a muslim cleric to raise a fatwa saying that if any muslim by any means kills innocent people he shall go to hell. The religion is a religion of peace. Do not make it a religion that causes pain… Dont tell muslims that if u explode a bomb and kill yourself and innocent people, you shall go directly to heaven and have 72 virgins waiting for you !!! Islam is a holi religion and not a religion for SEX !!! Kill a single soul and go to hell..

30. karthik - September 7, 2006

Agreed Vande Maataram is not the national anthem, but IT IS the national song, and national song is for all the citizens of a nation, be it a hindu, a mulim or an atheist. As citizens of India, we are Indians first and then hindus or muslims, not vice versa. The law of the land comes above the decree of one’s religion. and if Islam says only to bow ur head in respect to Allah and not ur country, are we to assume that deep down, all practitioners of Islam don’t give the kind of respect to the country that it deserves?

31. sk - September 7, 2006

islampusing –> It’s the politicians on both sides that exploit these situations to their advantage. The problem is that people are easily brainwashed in India (especially the illiterate ones). This is the reason religion and caste are major issues in India. I don’t think one can blame a single religion/ community for all this.

karthik–> There’s no easy answer to that question of yours, but I don’t think the problem is with the religion. IMO, neither the Hindu leaders nor the Muslim leaders give a damn about the country.

32. sk - September 7, 2006

I thought the idea of making schoolkids sing the song was pretty good, but BJP tried to gain political mileage from this. It may have been national pride that guided their actions, but it sure didn’t seem like that.

33. tismarkhan - September 8, 2006

‘…song “may” be treating some one more holy than the prophet…Islampusing”
I am not a muslim but the way I understand its not abt prophet, its abt Allah.
and its also not abt comparison who is holier than whom. Its just that Quran does not allow muslim to pray anyone else other than allah. I think saluting is fine too

“…if Islam says only to bow ur head in respect to Allah and not ur country, are we to assume that deep down, all practitioners of Islam don’t give the kind of respect to the country that it deserves? …-karthik”

No thats not a right assumption. It only says what they have been saying. They do not want to pray anyone else other than Allah. I think that still does not say that they will not give the country respect it deserves. One can respect their country without praying in front of them.

Gandhi is father of the nation. Not everyone respects him. Not even every hindu. But they might still love and respect the country as much Gandhi lovers might.
Not an accurate analogy, but all I am saying is for some reason every thing in India which is given National status, may not represent everyone in the country..and the best thing is to leave it that way.
Let national anthem be the only thing under the supervision of Law…because it has always been that way. Lets not worry abt whta is right and wrong..

34. tismarkhan - September 8, 2006

“..neither the Hindu leaders nor the Muslim leaders give a damn about the country. ..”

That says it all..! The hard truth.

35. Sameer - September 9, 2006

Islampusing :

Not condoning the Al Qaidas of the world advertising the “Jannat ki Hoor” thingy at all – but tangentially – you seem to imply than sex is unholy ! As someone who considers it a very natural and happy endeavour, I must protest 🙂 Not a very lofty goal, possibly, but surely nothing unholy abt that!

I seriously do not believe that people pick up guns to murder others in cold blood for that reason, though. Its purely for the sake of creating obvious uncounterable arguments that this one is brought up – and its kind of an anti-dogma dogma.

36. sk - September 9, 2006

“As someone who considers it a very natural and happy endeavour, I must protest Not a very lofty goal, possibly, but surely nothing unholy abt that!”

And why do you think it’s not a lofty goal? Nothing wrong with it. It represents the very purpose of animal life and is the driving force behind it. Sex after death is a funny concept, though. Why do you want to kill someone to have sex with 72 virgins?

37. Sameer - September 10, 2006

@sk – true. why not even a loft goal :))
Seriously tho – like I said – bringing that up as a cause for people picking up guns and becoming cold blooded enough to murder indiscriminately is an obvious red herring. Takes away from genuine debate.

38. sk - September 10, 2006

Sameer, I agree. I find it extremely weird that there are people who actually fall for this crap and that the promise of 72 virgins in heaven is sufficient for them to commit mindless acts of violence. Funny, but also extremely sad.

39. bachodi - October 18, 2006

” was because it literally translates as ‘I bow head in front of you, Mother’ ”

Please tell me the source where you found the translation. Also the language from which it is translated.
“Vande” or its congugates are used in almost all languages ( except tamil and north-eastern ones) . It simply translates into “salute” . Just a respective version of our ” hello” or ” HI ” . Its the poet who transltated it into english feels “vande” is “bow”.

40. Tismar Khan - October 18, 2006

@bachodi,
“..Please tell me the source where you found the translation..”
“.. It simply translates into “salute”..”

Words in any language tend to change in meaning and reference over the time (and a century is a lot of time).
I agree that ‘vande’ could be referred to as ‘salam’ or ‘salute’. (hi\hello is bit of a push!). But u r oversimplifying it when u said it ‘SIMPLY’ translates as…. You have to understand the time, reference, poet’s (not the translator, the poet) intent when u actually do the translation. I am not claiming its meant to be bow, I am just saying its not ultra-clear what it could have been referred to.

Lot of historians\scholars have debated on this issue, and the fact is when it went to the debate at that level, then clearly it does not ‘simply’ translates into something.

41. bachodi - October 20, 2006

Hi,

“and a century is a lot of time”..
no not at all, not for sanskrit atleast. Over one ( or may be two) millenium nobody added a single word to it and deleted. Its the same, standing.

” hi\hello is bit of a push”
“vande” is litarally hi\hello\salam. I simplified, agreed. But In extreem case it can be respective HI. Thats it. In no way it does mean ” bow head”

Have you heard ” namaste/namaskar” ? what does it mean ?
is it ….” i rub my head below your feet and lick your boot “???

42. Tismar Khan - October 20, 2006

“..Have you heard ” namaste/namaskar” ? what does it mean ?
is it ….” i rub my head below your feet and lick your boot “??? ..”

I really do not enjoy cheap sarcasm and neither I would entertain it here. That statement was random and totally uncalled for. Next time I wont even respond.

“..Over one ( or may be two) millenium nobody added a single word to it and deleted. ..”
No one is talking about addition or deletion. I am just saying what it could have been referred to. References change all the time. Even in sanskrit poems and literature, each word is used in different references to mean different things. I agree translation is never accurate, but if it is not accurate then you cannot say for sure either ways.

““vande” is litarally hi\hello\salam.”
First of all hi\hello and salam are not exactly same. Salam generates more respect. This difference in meaning is what I am talking about.

“In no way it does mean ” bow head””

Well I disagree.

43. bachodi - October 20, 2006

” …… I agree translation is never accurate, but if it is not accurate then you cannot say for sure either ways……. ”

I strongly agree with this. now please justify your statement , made in the post..

“……. was because it literally translates as ‘I bow head in front of you, Mother’…….”

44. Tismar Khan - October 20, 2006

@bachodi,

This translation was provided by shree aurbindo who has done lot of work on vedas and in sanskrit litrature. It is universally cited in most of the resources and you can google yourself to check it.

so I surely will never agree to anyone who says ‘no way it means bow’.

In fact, the debate over the word came into existence only after quran controversy. People only thought that by giving it a better translation, they might be able to settle the issue.

and even that debate is only whether it means salute or it means worship, and if it does involve bow or not, and if bowing to parents is indeed banned in Quran or not. Everything within close vicinity of ‘bow’.
You are the first person I know who have claimed vande means hi or hello.

Now yes I do think translation can never be accurate because of inherent difference in the language. One language might not even have the equivalent word to translate other language’s word. So you just can go as close as possible and call it the ‘literal translation’.

This is what I meant when I said “it literally translates as bow’.

I agree its an open ended statement and there might be better fit (which is surely not HI\HELLO) into the translation but I just went with shree aurbindo and the point was to refer the controversy which surrounds the song.

Now at least I do not have anything more to add on this translation episode. Your arguement and disagreement is duly and respectfully noted.

45. Commenting « Sparks Team Blog - April 10, 2007

[…] sarcasm: This has been made clear by tismarkhan in the […]

46. bachodi - June 12, 2007

I am coming here after eight month ( around )
I have something for you on this topic. Hope you are interested
http://oemar.wordpress.com/2007/06/06/vande-mataram-an-injustice-to-beauty/

47. surabhi - August 3, 2007

can someone please tell me the name of anu malik’s song i love you O india tujhe na chodenge .. i cant find it on the net … where can i find it any suggesttions… my email is surabhibaijal@gmail.com …pls help i am desperate

48. Hey Ram… « Sparks Team Blog - September 19, 2007

[…] year around this time, Indian politicians were awfully conscious about 100th Anniversary of Vande Mataram. This year, their memory seems to be little rusty on 101th Anniversary. […]

49. Hey Ram… « Space, Dreams and Beyond - September 19, 2007

[…] year around this time, Indian politicians were awfully conscious about 100th Anniversary of Vande Mataram. This year, their memory seems to be little rusty on 101th Anniversary. […]

50. Ritwik Banerjee - September 27, 2007

In any case, Islam allows that kind of respect only to Allah

Does that mean a Muslim kid cannot respect his/her parents? Or is it that s/he is not allowed to respect his/her country?

Just curious!

51. tismarkhan - September 27, 2007

@Ritwik,

“Does that mean a Muslim kid cannot respect his/her parents? Or is it that s/he is not allowed to respect his/her country?”

I think when I said
“In any case, Islam allows that kind of respect only to Allah”
the stress was on THAT KIND OF.

However, I am not a muslim and I do not want to misrepresent any community. This is only my understanding.

btw, ritwik, did you have anything to do with tufts university?

52. Ritwik Banerjee - September 27, 2007

I admit that I had misread the stress! But even then my question remains. By “that kind of respect” you mean the respect towards one’s country, right? So …. a German muslim is supposed to express more reverence towards Mecca than towards his/her fatherland? Doesn’t make any sense to me. It looks like an attempt to uproot a person from a cultural lineage and forcibly associate him/her to one foreign symbol.

About Tufts: No.

53. tismarkhan - September 27, 2007

“By “that kind of respect” you mean the respect towards one’s country, right? ”

No actually I mean respect towards ALLAH. In other word, one cannot respect anyone or anything more than ALLAH. That does not mean they cannot respect their country or parents. Its only that ALLAH is above them all.

” a German muslim is supposed to express more reverence towards Mecca than towards his/her fatherland?”
Probably not. or at least not what I said. ALL I mean is a german muslim kid would be expected to respect ALLAH more than his/her fatherland. I have no comments on whether ALLAH is synonymous to mecca or not and it is not in the scope of my post.

“It looks like an attempt to uproot a person from a cultural lineage and forcibly associate him/her to one foreign symbol.”

I do not know abt uprooting part, but abt everything else, isnt religion all about that?
Doesnt a roman catholic in USA worships the pope sitting thousands of miles away in Vatican?

what is “foreign” and what is “native” is afterall how you look at it.!!

“About Tufts: No.”
Damn! I almost thought I found an old buddy!!

54. sk - September 27, 2007

Ritwik, for what it’s worth, I don’t think tismarkhan was referring to anyone but Indian muslims. German muslims probably are different. If I ever run into one, I’ll find out. 🙂

55. tismarkhan - September 27, 2007

u said it sk!!

56. Marqus - August 13, 2016

So people clearly says here religion is above country. Great. That’s how jihadis get support.


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